Friday, April 22, 2011
The Natural: Post #2
Lots of connections to the Parcival myth in last night's reading. Some literary critics have said that Malamud put a realistic man in a mythological setting. Is that fair? Has Malamud set Roy up for failure? So far, has Roy changed in the 15 years since the shooting? Be specific in your responses, please.
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I don't necessarily agree with the idea that the Natural involves putting a realistic man into a mythological setting. I think the setting is just as realistic, and it is the plot that has a certain mythological nature in that it seems to follow the Parcival story.
ReplyDeleteIt is hard to answer the question of whether or not Malamud has set Roy up for failure without having a specific definition of failure. I think Roy has a good chance of "healing" the pains of Pop Fisher by taking his team to the World Series, so in that respect, Roy is not set up to fail. However, his very human attributes, such as his various temptations and general lack of deep analytical thought, are likely to cause major problems for Roy himself down the road. I see him having a personal failure while leading to the success of the New York Knights.
I think Roy has changed a little over the years, but he still lacks wisdom. When Roy mistakes Bump for the Whammer, he doesn't get competitive with Bump but instead lets Bump continue being rude. This represents a change in how he reacts to the "Alpha Male" character, and it reflects an increase in maturity.
I do see truth in the idea that Roy is being placed as a realistic man into a mythological, but modern situation. Roy's actions and outcome, however, might not reflect those of Parcival because the author is setting up the story to tell how a real person would react to this age-old heroes journey. I agree with Nate in that it is not yet clear whether Roy is destined for failure or success. Roy clearly faces adverse conditions in his career starting as a Rookie in his thirties on a stagnant and failing team. My belief is that Roy will be able to overcome these adversities and disprove everyone's previous doubts, but will face a catastrophic end just short of winning the World Series like Fisher. I relate this back to the part of Parcival's journey where he remembers his mothers advice of never asking a question, as I think Roy will also have a fatal flaw that he cannot overcome. Ray has indeed matured in his time between the shooting and joining the Knights, however, he still shows his naïvity and "rookie" behavior. Similar to what Nate said, Roy is more submissive and is easy for others to convince and possibly manipulate in the future.
ReplyDeleteI do see the notion that Malamud has put a realistic man in a mythological setting. Roy as a character is very realistic. He has many flaws that make him seem like he could be an actual person. When this character is thrown together with the myth of Percival, it makes for an interesting combination. It is expected that Roy will follow the exact same path as Percival, put it is hard to see how this could happen with Roy's unique personality and flaws.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that Malamud had set Roy up for failure. He has had to over come great hardship getting over his injury and now has been put on a failing team. It seems from here, the only way he can go is up.
There is definitely a difference in Roy in the past 15 years. He seems less cocky, more reserved. When Roy is talking with Red about wanting to "Leave a mark," it doesn't seem like something he would have said before, as if he had thought it over for a long time.
Although I disagree with the word choice of "setting" over "scenario," I agree with those critics. In terms of sheer semantics, Malamud is quick to lay down some fairly clear references to Arthurian legends—the team name of "Knights," anyone? In terms of actual plot and character, the odds Roy has to overcome and the goals he must achieve are pretty Herculean—perhaps not automatically conducive to failure, but gargantuan nonetheless. Here he is, a thirty-four year old rookie who's already been shot, with only the Oomoo Oilers to his name, and now he joins the worst team in the league—in the history of baseball, from what Pop Fisher makes it sound like—only to find out that he must use his skills to ease the pain of Pop's flop and make the Knights the best team around. Roy's journey is already peppered with obstacles and discouragements, from the surprise sighting of Max Mercy to the boisterous arrogance of Bump. Nothing seems to be going right for him, but everyone still needs Roy to be the best player around. That's a pretty tall order. However, in many ways, Roy has changed to accommodate those new demands. No longer does he brag of his talents; instead, he lets his talent do the talking for him. He does not confront, does not initiate, but rather listens, taking in criticism and counsel alike. This ability could very well make Roy a leader of the team someday, because it allows him to know what needs to be done yet communicate that in an accessible way. Although he many never be a star the likes of Bump or the Whammer, the reader gets the sense that Roy doesn't need to have their braggadocio or arrogance in order to lead the team. Thirty-four-year-old Roy does seem quieter and more easily spooked than his nineteen-year-old self. While it's terrible he had to endure such trauma to become that new person, perhaps his encounter with Harriet will have had a bright side after all.
ReplyDeleteI do believe that Roy is an extremely realistic character in a very mythological and unrealistic setting. As said above, Roy is flawed in so many different ways, especially in just pure common sense, but for him to be given these opportunities out of the blue is completely ridiculous. This is where the truthfulness and realness of the characters come into combat with the fake-ness of the story.
ReplyDeleteThere is absolutely no way that Malamud has set Roy up for failure because he can't get in much worse of a position. Granted he has been given the ability to play after his injury, but he has been put on a terrible team. it said that the last outfielder "had a ball hit him on the head and is now paralyzed." As long as Roy manages not to decapitate himself on the field, he has set himself up for success.
I don't see all that much of a difference between Roy now and Roy fifteen years ago. He is still an idiot, and where I believe he does have a good outlook on life and the possibility of his success, he is too naive to recognize that there are things he cannot accomplish.
I think that the plotline doesn't really put Roy Hobbs in a mythological situation, but it more follows the realistic storyline. The relationship between the mythological story of Percival is there, but Roy Hobb’s hero’s cycle is one that has a more real and plausible plot and probable outcome.
ReplyDeleteI feel as though the author is setting up Roy to succeed, especially by putting him on the last place team. The fact that he is a rookie in his thirties will not matter if he was able to retain some of his ability prior to the shooting. The one way in which he might fail is in easing Fishers pain and finally bringing the World Series to him, because the Fishers Flop story seems like it is too foreboding. As for the overall journey of Roy Hobbs, I think that he will succeed all the way up to the World Series with his tremendous ability, but it becomes unclear if he will be able to overcome the final hurdle in the heroes cycle. As for how he has changed since the shooting, I feel like Roy has become more concerned about himself and more passive. This is especially true when Bump basically kicks him out of his room and pokes fun at him. The fact that he lets this pass shows how he has matured and is more focused on the long-term goal instead of getting concerned over the little arguments.
I do agree that Roy is a realistic character put into a mythological setting. Roy has dreams, fears and in all senses seems to be completely realistic. The setting on the other hand does not seem realistic. So far, Roy has been shot by one woman, and made love with another relatively random woman, both incidents seeming highly unlikely. Since Roy and Parcival's stories are very similar, I also believe that Malamud has set up Roy for failure. However I do not necessarily agree that he will fail, just that Malamud has set him up for failure. It will be interesting to see if Roy can beat the odds and come out on top.
ReplyDeleteAs for Roy changing, I did not see anything drastic in Roy now versus 15 years prior. He still loves baseball and tries to find success in the majors. While Roy remains optimistic about playing baseball he has changed a little with how confident he is in himself. The 19 year old Roy seemed to be more cocky and arrogant, but now he seems less self centered. An example of this being when did a favor for Bump by giving up his room.
I definitely believe that Roy is a realistic man in a mythological setting. I liken his journey to many ballplayers who come up as hot prospects, only to flame out and dwell in obscurity for many years, before finally making it to the big leagues in later years (one example being Josh Hamilton). However, the sense that Roy is a realistic man stems more from his flaws and personality. As for the mythological setting, the parallels are uncanny. Reading over Parvizal again, I saw many connections between it and “The Natural”. Roy, or Parvizal, encounters the Fisher King, and must heal his wound that will not heal. Of course this wound is the famed “Fisher Flop” and in order to heal the wound Roy must win the pennant, taking the horrendous Knights from worst to first. This parallel is extended by the fact that Parvizal is seeking the Holy Grail, this of course being the World Series Trophy. Thus this storyline sets up Roy for failure. Roy must transform the Knights from an awful team to the best in the league, or else Pop Fisher cannot be healed from his wounds. With each layer and connection the Parzival story, comes more support that Malamud has set up Roy for failure. Lastly, Roy has definitely changed in the last fifteen years. As others has said, Roy has attained a quiet confidence about his game, contrasting his arrogance from the train. Another interesting idea I thought about was with what Roy wants in life. Instead of wanting to be the best ballplayer there ever was, it seems Roy has found out that winning the pennant is more important. Roy has grown up, and sees Bump as a symbol of the fact that individual stats do not hold much ground in baseball, but it is about team chemistry and teamwork.
ReplyDeleteHad to rewrite after a failed posting :(
I agree with the idea that a realistic man (Roy) is being put in a mythological setting. In my opinion, Roy being put into this mythological setting where he is going to be tested is completely fair because it gives himself a chance to prove himself and also make a name for himself. Although many people may think the author is setting Roy up to fail I believe that he really has nothing to lose. If he fails he has the excuse of being old and not in his prime anymore and since he's already on a team that is struggling he will not have people expecting the team to win every game.
ReplyDeleteAlthough his inability to control his emotions for females has not changed, Roy at thirty-four years old seems extremely different in my opinion. More mature is the first thing that comes to my mind when I think about how he has changed. He seems to have mellowed down a little bit and learned not to gloat as much.
It's true that Malamud put a realistic man in a mythological setting. Roy Hobbs has joined a nightmare of a team 1/3 of the way through the season and he's expected to take them to victory. The author has set him up for failure because Roy is 34, which is old for baseball. However I agree with Brett that it seems that Roy has calmed down and knows what he has to do to take the team to success. However we still see his naivete because he is willing to switch rooms with a shady prankster like Bump. There are many connections between the Natural and Parzival. One is that Roy is naive, simple, and foolish at times similarly to Parzival because they both know nothing of the world, coming from Oregon and deep in the forest. Another parallel is that Hobbs must heal Pop Fisher's wound from "Fisher's Flop", just as Parzival must heal the Fisher King of his wound. For Roy the Holy Grail is the pennant.
ReplyDeleteI agree with all of the above that Roy is in a mythological setting. Though I also agree that it seems like he is a realistic man, there are also some things about the story that make it seem like he has supernatural help. The obvious example would be that he survived being shot in the stomach. There is also a pattern emerging. In the first chapter Roy went up against all odds when he played against the Whammer, and manages to come out on top. He also "replaced" this amazing player in a sense because of all of the people who saw him defeat him, and in the fact that he got the attention of the girl (even though that turned out to not be a good thing).
ReplyDeleteThe same is happening in this chapter with Bump. Against all odds, Roy seems to be coming out on top. Even though he is in his thirties, and was shot he is still extremely successful. It seems like something keeps on helping Roy to succeed even when it seems like he is about to fail
Roy has changed a lot since the night of the shooting. He is 15 years older and much wiser. He has calmed down from the hot shot kid who thought he was untouchable to a modest and reserved man. Roy has matured and learned many lessons since being a kid. He know looks at Bump as an arrogant player and someone who is only it in for himself. Maybe it is a good thing Roy didn't play right out of high school because he could have become a player just like Bump.
ReplyDeleteIn a sense, Malamud has put a realistic man in a mythological setting. Roy seems to represent a fairly realistic man: he is of average looks and intelligence, he has typical desires, he even has flaws that make him seem more relatable to everyone else, etc. But his setting is definitely different than that of the average Joe. In this case, the myth is the opportunity to play in Major League baseball.
ReplyDeleteTaking into account the determination that Roy is fairly average, whereas his setting is not, one could posit that Roy has in fact been set up for failure. However, he does not seem to be set up for failure on a grand scale. Malamud makes it clear that Roy does possess the talent and skill to take the Knights all the way to the top, and that doing so will heal Pop Fisher (the success of the team actually seems to heal Pop's hands). Roy will most likely experience failure on a more personal, and perhaps internal, level.
Roy has not changed much in the 15 years since the shooting. He seems to be more cynical, and his attitude towards the world has hardened a bit, but he maintains his sort of naïve nature. Although he is outwardly more reserved and less confident than he was before, he remains young and foolish in his mindset. These traits manifest themselves in inconsistencies in his behaviour.